So yeah, it’s “your body”. But are you sending a different message?

July 8, 2010 By In Babble 148 Comments

Ok I get:

  • You didn’t want to be humped in a bar.
  • The guy had the impression it was ok to hump you in a bar.
  • You feel the need to bitch about it.

I understand all of the above.

What I don’t get:

  • How it went from dancing to humping.
  • What gave him the impression that you’d be ok with being humped in a bar, or “penetrated”.
  • Bitching about it the next day instead of doing something proactively about it right then and there.

Here are my thoughts. The average guy, doesn’t arbitrarily start “humping” a random girl in a bar. There has to be SOMETHING that gives him the impression that she would be receptive to it. Whether intentional or not she has to do something to encourage him. Frankly most men are too chicken shit to do anything without some level of encouragement.

Now in no way am I trying to say or imply that you willfully invited the “humping” Just pointing out that there may be something you are overlooking. Some element of your own behavior that invited this bit of intrusion. Am I trying to place you at fault for his mis-behavior? Hell no.

But I am saying that in any given situation involving two people regardless of their gender  there are two distinctly different perspectives.

What I’m getting at, is maybe it’s time to take a good long look at your own behavior. Because if your body is being groped, used, assaulted, grabbed, handled or otherwise touched without your permission as often as you say, it would seem that you are doing something to provoke it. Again, this may or may not be something  you’re aware of.

But the average person doesn’t get touched on a daily basis, the average person doesn’t encounter rape and near rape all the damn time.

Sure a person should be able to wear what they want, go where they want, say and do what they want without being treated like a hunk of meat on a deli counter.

No woman deserves to be treated like a whore, however is she happens to be wearing the uniform….she shouldn’t be surprised when she gets treated like one.

Ya know, I’m not a doctor. I don’t heal the sick, but if I went around dressed up like one and hanging around in a hospital I’d have to expect sick people to ask me to make them feel better.

Folks need to take personal responsibility for their own actions. Again, no woman deserves to be treated like a whore. No man has the right to assume he can touch her. And if we are being honest, the majority of men do not make that assumption.

Many years ago, I was the victim of a dime store grade mugging. I walked through an alley and by the time I came out the other end, my wallet was gone and my eye was bleeding.  Did I have a mug me sign on my forehead? Nope. Did I ask to get mugged? Nope. Did I tell that guy it was ok to mug me? Nope. But I sure as fuck made a target of myself. Has it happened since? Nope. I learned from it. Do I still walk through alleys? You bet your ass. However, I don’t carry myself in such a way that makes me look like an easy mark.  In fact just my presence alone makes a lot of people damned nervous.

There are always going to be consequences to every action, right or wrong. One’s actions invariably set the tone for their treatment. So to put it bluntly; if you dress, talk, and behave like a promiscuous devalued twit, you’re sure to get some low life to hump you in a bar.

Constant complaints about inappropriate contact, make me think one of two things is going on, the person doing the bitching is either lying for attention, or doing something to promote it. Because if every person who cried rape, who cried grope, actuallywas groped, or raped or humped or what ever…men would NEVER accomplish a damn thing, we’d all be far too busy accosting women.

~Taylor

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148 Responses to So yeah, it’s “your body”. But are you sending a different message?

  1. It’s sort of like the whole fiasco with Micheal Jackson may his soul rest easy.
    Whether he actually ever did anything inappropriate to those children or not, he made the mistake of putting himself in a compromising position. If one truly wants to avoid certain things, they take the necessary steps to keep them from happening. Of course, if that person is just looking for sympathy and attention…they’ll make sure the “unwanted” keeps happening.

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  2. I was thinking something along the same lines. I’ve been to a nightclub about three times in my entire life.

    Similar situation, with the dancing and such. Guy got too close for comfort, obviously had an erection and wrapped his arms around my waist from behind. I grabbed his hands and removed them from my waist, turned around and shook my head ’no’ at him and moved to another area of the dance floor.

    A couple years later I was dancing with a new guy I had been dating. “Whoop, There it is.” was playing. During the chorus he grabbed my crotch, in the middle of the dance floor and sang the line. I stopped dancing, slapped him and told him I was ready to go home.

    In a public space, like a club, if you make a big scene? The guy is going to stop in the majority of cases. He’s not going to rape you in the middle of a club, with bouncers, waitresses, bartenders, and a hundred + witnesses. I get that in those situations there is a fight or flight response, and some women (or men) might be freaked out and just leave. I’m not bragging about how I handled it. But, if I was consistently getting sexually assaulted or raped every time I drank, went to a bar, went to a party, went to a club, etc, I wouldn’t fucking go to those places anymore and I wouldn‘t drink. Regardless of whose responsibility it is to not assault, to not rape, I wouldn’t subject myself to that shit for the sake of a fucking principle. Because repeating the same behavior over and over again and expecting a different result? Is called insanity. At some point you have to take responsibility for your life, for your happiness, for your well-being and do what you can do for yourself. At some point the average person figures out that what they’re doing isn’t working and they change their behavior accordingly.

    You are spot on with this post.

    Reply
  3. Clearly slut-shaming will make your point super well. You do a wonderful job of contradicting yourself, saying that you don’t think anyone deserves to be treated like that but also saying that she must have done something to deserve it? You see, the thing about rapists and molesters is that they’re rapists and molesters…it does not matter to them what a woman is wearing or how she’s acting. The only thing that happened here was that a woman was in the presence of a man who thought he was entitled to her body. As for your statement that she should have spoken up, it is often so shocking to a person when their personal space is invaded like that that they have a hard time managing to say something. Years of socialization about being “polite” also doesn’t really help.

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  4. [...] the fuck gives someone the right to write an entire blog post about how I must have been asking for it? WHAT THE FUCK? You don’t know me or what happened, [...]

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  5. @femmina Thanks for your comments. Vile is right @Ghouldilocks but mostly sad and disheartening that other young women are reading this oppressive crap with a shiny “sex positive” glossy sheen over the top.

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  6. “No man has the right to assume he can touch her. And if we are being honest, the majority of men do not make that assumption.”

    So, I totally went to this club when I was in college with a bunch of my female friends. I’m 5’10″ about 300lbs and I had a shaved head at that point. I was rather imposing looking. The girls I went with were all very attractive in the conventional way. After dancing for a few minutes some guys came up and started trying to dance against my friends, grinding their pelvises against them. The girls told them NO. The guys continued. We danced away from them working into a corner, the guys followed us. We spoke to a bouncer, and they were then kicked out. Fast forward about 45 minutes, more guys come up and start grinding against my friends. They told the guys to go away, which only illicited such crap like “What baby? aww why not? Just a little bit, why are you being so cold?” and other platitudes and “I’m not actually listening to your request” kind of bullshit. We again found ourselves back in the corner so there wasn’t as much an opportunity for the guys to surround my friends. I was the one who was dancing furthest from the dance floor, blocking the guys from getting to my friends. At one point when they realized what I was doing they actually came up and made it a game to hump/rub themselves against me, like they were dancing, so I happened to start swinging my elbows more while dancing and I caught one of them in the sternum, which made them stop humping me and start calling me really foul names instead. We finally complained to the bouncers about these guys too, and the bouncers did kick them out but WE got grief for it as well, as if we were the ones who were fucked in the head for wanting to go to a dance club to just dance and not be groped. When the next set of guys started in on us we decided to call it a night instead of dealing with it again.

    You’d be surprised at the amount of guys who think it’s completely acceptable to touch a woman’s body without permission. Even nice guys who are fed these messages about how women are just playing hard to get, and men have to have game and be aggressors, can fall into a trap where they learn that simply existing within arms reach implies consent. Maybe they are nice guys but their actions can make women feel really disenfranchised about their bodies. There’s no excuse for ignoring the boundaries of consent. If a woman dresses, talks, and behaves like a promiscuous devalued twit, that is still not consent for unwanted sexual contact, ever.

    “Constant complaints about inappropriate contact, make me think one of two things is going on, the person doing the bitching is either lying for attention, or doing something to promote it”
    If by promoting it you mean simply existing as an attractive woman…

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  7. this is ridiculous. i’m so disappointed in you for writing this post. as a sex-positive woman who writes regularly about sexuality, i would never have expected this sort of thing from you.

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  8. I always knew it was my fault for being so pretty that men tries to grope and rub themselves on me all the time when I’m out clubbing. I better throw acid in my face before the next time I go out. Or wear a burka.

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  9. Wilhelmina is right, this is vile crap. If this is how your significant other thinks then you ought to think twice about him. Would he feel this way if it happened to you?

    You owe her a huge apology for this. Try being a gentleman and apologize instead of being a neanderthal

    Reply
  10. “No woman deserves to be treated like a whore, however i[f] she happens to be wearing the uniform…”

    The first half of this? Spot on. No woman deserves to be treated like a whore. PERIOD. It doesn’t matter what she’s wearing. There is no “however”.

    It’s the perpetuation of the belief that there IS a “however” that causes the problem. There’s mention of “personal responsibility for their own actions”. How about the personal responsibility of the person VIOLATING another person purely on the way that they are dressed? On what they THINK was communicated rather than asking, explicitly, for consent? Where is THAT personal responsibility? The personal responsibility that would’ve prevented ANY OF THIS from happening?

    Telling someone that it is their personal responsibility to “dress appropriately” to prevent unwanted attention is victim-blaming.

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  11. “The average guy, doesn’t arbitrarily start “humping” a random girl in a bar. There has to be SOMETHING that gives him the impression that she would be receptive to it. Whether intentional or not she has to do something to encourage him. ”

    This is a statement so patently absurd that I have a far harder time believing in the idea of anyone making it seriously than believing in the idea of a man rubbing against a strange woman in a bar and then trying to rape her. Rape and sexual assault are crimes, which many “average”-appearing men commit every day. They are not “misunderstandings,” and generally the person who commits them knows full well what he’s doing and that it’s unwelcome.

    But, of course, the person whose blog this is isn’t directly linking her name to this article, is she?

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  12. “Constant complaints about inappropriate contact, make me think one of two things is going on, the person doing the bitching is either lying for attention, or doing something to promote it. Because if every person who cried rape, who cried grope, actuallywas groped, or raped or humped or what ever…men would NEVER accomplish a damn thing, we’d all be far too busy accosting women.”

    What. The. Fuck!? So…the majority of women crying rape/assault must be full of shit because that just makes too many men look bad? Give me a fucking break.

    For the record, I don’t even go to straight clubs anymore because every time I’ve gone, I’ve had no less than an uninvited strangers hands find their way into my pants. However, that doesn’t mean that I’m doing the responsible thing by no longer going….I’m just making a personal choice. Britni has every right to do the same…neither of which have any baring over what a rapist/assaulter will do.

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  13. Say the situation went far enough that he raped her, which–according to the side of the story we have to work with, so let’s stop trying to build a phantom defense for this guy until he comes forward– seems to be the direction things were going. Did she still invite it then?

    If she gets forcibly penetrated at a club, does that put the burden of shame back on her rapist? Or does she have to share in it because you suspect she might be presenting herself as a whore?

    Just curious.

    Honestly, even if this entry is a joke it’s a disgusting one.

    Reply
  14. Ah, the sharks have found the chum and are, as usual, making huge leaps from what was actually said to what they heard.

    Provoke =/= blame or fault. Some synonyms for provoke are: incite, excite, stimulate, arouse, rouse, stir.

    What was actually said was that IF a person is consistently having the same sort of things happen to them, that perhaps they are doing something (even unknowingly) that would encourage the people around them to think it was alright. To believe that they were okay with it.

    No where did he say that she deserved to be nearly raped because she was where she was or was acting like she was acting. Saying that he did is being melodramatic.

    In the original situation, girl goes to club, drinks, dances, notices possible erection, keeps dancing, realizes it’s an erection, leaves to tell friends she wants to go home, goes up to bar and has the guy come up to her and ‘attempt to penetrate her’. This is her perspective of what happened.

    What did the guy’s perspective look like? He was probably drinking, as usually happens at clubs. Girl starts dancing with him (probably dirty dancing which is fairly close to dry humping, which generally would cause an erection.). Guy starts to get erection, he sees girl notice erection, girl continues dancing so he thinks ‘maybe she’s into it’. Girl leaves dance floor and he finds her back at the bar.

    Maybe he didn’t realize that she quit dancing because of his erection. Even if he saw her go talk to her friends, he couldn’t hear what she was saying over the music. When he saw her at the bar he may have assumed she was buying another drink.

    Attempted penetration at a bar? Inappropriate. Though it seems really unlikely that a man would pull out his erect penis and try to have sex with someone in the middle of a packed nightclub. Despite that, his perspective of the situation until that point could have been a lot different than hers. We can’t expect people to read our minds. Making the faceless guy at the nightclub into a villain may be great for blog hits and sympathy, but people aren’t one-dimensional characters.

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    • And what a person is doing in order to have been assaulted – once or multiple times – is living in a culture that tells people it’s okay to sexually assault someone.

      That is it.

      Also, false reports of rape and other sexual assaults happen at vanishingly small levels. Additionally, the kind of attention that usually comes with reporting a sexual assault of any kind is of the kind that is in this post and your comment – victim-blaming. Which is part of why so many rapes and sexual assaults aren’t reported at all.

      Rape and sexual assault are not “misunderstandings”. They are crimes. Cut line.

      See also: Rape Culture 101.

      Reply
  15. “Though it seems really unlikely that a man would pull out his erect penis and try to have sex with someone in the middle of a packed nightclub…..Making the faceless guy at the nightclub into a villain may be great for blog hits and sympathy, but people aren’t one-dimensional characters.”

    Naivety at it’s finest…..

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  16. “Making the faceless guy at the nightclub into a villain may be great for blog hits and sympathy, but people aren’t one-dimensional characters.”

    That’s an…interesting perspective. Are you under the impression rape never happens? Or that when it happens, the rapist is not a villain? Because that’s the only way I could see it making any sense at all to respond to a story of blatant sexual assault with, “Making the faceless guy at the nightclub into a villain may be great for blog hits and sympathy, but people aren’t one-dimensional characters.”

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    • Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough.

      The human being who sexually assaulted another human being does not automatically lose their humanity when they perform an action other people deem inappropriate. There was a series of events that led up to that inappropriate moment and the people involved both have different perspectives of those events. What he did was wrong, but it does not make him a villain. It makes him a person, who was likely under the influence of alcohol, who made a big mistake.

      I realize that rapes happen, but a rapist is not always some evil man who preys on young pretty women. The only situations where that is even remotely true is when women are violently attacked and raped. In the grey area, where people are interacting in a manner that leads one of them to believe that sex might occur, and the other person doesn’t want sex but isn’t necessarily clear about their desires, there are merely two people with different ideas about what is going down.

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      • I don’t think anyone was claiming what you think they were. Part of what makes rape so scary is that it can be enacted by anyone: the average Joe, a good friend… if there was a look or aura to a rapist then we’d have a clear-cut thing to avoid, wouldn’t we?

        Personally I don’t think rapists are “evil”, that’s just too simplistic a way of looking at it. Some of them probably had screwed up backgrounds or just weren’t exposed to the right ideas while growing up or had fathers who encouraged them to bone lots of chicks… who knows?

        However, no matter why they did it – these men still raped/sexually assaulted/etc and shouldn’t be excused for it.

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  17. Sarah, what is the point of humanizing this man? We all know he is a person and people make mistakes, blah blah blah. But really, what is the purpose of playing devils advocate for the person in this scenario that you don’t know? It’s coming off as just blatantly inflammatory towards Britni, IMO.

    And since child molesters were already mentioned, I have to say, I’m sure you wouldn’t be saying “The human being who sexually assaulted another human being does not automatically lose their humanity when they perform an action other people deem inappropriate. There was a series of events that led up to that inappropriate moment and the people involved both have different perspectives of those events. What he did was wrong, but it does not make him a villain. It makes him a person, who was likely under the influence of alcohol, who made a big mistake. ”

    #Justsayin’

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    • Because children can’t consent. Child molestation is a completely different and irrelevant situation, IMO.

      Children don’t go to nightclubs, drink and dance with other people who are known to frequent such places for the sole purpose of finding someone to take home with them for the evening. I’m not trying to be inflammatory, I’m trying to be realistic. There’s a medium somewhere between victim blaming and being a perpetual victim that people are absolutely refusing to even try to come to. The sensationalized, melodramatic, completely missing the point on purpose arguments are getting pretty stale.

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      • So, sarahbear… so if someone CAN consent, that means she IS consenting? That is what you are saying.

        “For the sole purpose of finding someone to take home with her for the evening.”

        I see. So, first, every man can sense that a woman might want to get laid. Second, if a woman wants to get laid, or hell, just dresses up to look hot, that means she wants any man to do anything he wants to her. Anything at all. Well, that makes sense. I know whenever I’ve dressed up to look sexy and gone to a club with my friends, that means I want random men to come along and grope me and stick things into my orifices. Any man. Every man. That’s what we sluts who aren’t ashamed of our sexuality do, after all. Tsk tsk. I’m sure burkas and rules about when women could drive and go out at night would solve this problem.

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        • “Well, she didn’t SAY that I couldn’t tear her clothes off and have my way with her, so what’s the problem?”

          I don’t understand what’s so hard for some people to understand about consent. There is no GREY AREA when it comes to consent. A person is either given consent or not. **The answer is always no** unless consent is explicitly given. Some victims are too scared to say no and rapists take advantage of those situations. Rapists take advantage of when their victims are too inebriated to say no. It is unfortunate that Sarahbear sees this faux “grey area” as existing… because I think that by accepting its existence gives more opportunities for attackers to blame their victims for their own vile behavior by saying that their victims were “asking for it”.

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  18. This post is appalling enough to make me feel the need to comment.

    Taylor, Carrie Ann writes about sex, does video reviews about sex toys, works for a sex toy company. If some guy sees her out at a club one night, recognizes her from a web venue and decides she’s a slut, cause, you know, anyone who is so involved in sexuality is clearly a slut, oh, and her shirt is a bit low, or her skirt is an inch above what he deems “acceptable” and harasses her or god forbid, rapes her, you’d say she was complicit in being harassed or assaulted? Because your argument pretty much comes down to that.

    Let me save my breath, because someone who can actually come up with the stream of crap that you’ve written probably won’t be swayed by my words. Watch this video – http://notever.co.uk/ – maybe that will make you see how harmful and vile your thoughts on this are.

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    • I’ve been harassed in clubs and bars. I do not claim to be better than anyone but I am quite capable of deflecting most unwanted advances.

      I have a sharp tongue. I have a strong body. I have a good right hook. And I’m not the least bit afraid to use any of those things, nor my power to scream, tell the bouncers/owners/managers and call the police.

      Should something happen to me and I did none of that I would fully expect Taylor to shake his head and be disappointed in me.

      We cannot control what others do.
      Only what we do.

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    • As with all things in life, the situation is rarely if ever so cut and dried.

      “cause you know any one so involved in sexuality is clearly a slut” Your words NOT mine.

      And again you aren’t seeing my point. You like others are only seeing something that gives you ammunition to call me names. That allows you some moral high ground to belittle me with. And quite frankly you are all wrong.

      All dramatic bullshit aside lets asses the present situation. We have a female who, dresses provocatively, is in a bar, has been dancing with a guy, obviously dancing close enough to feel his erection, and who doesn’t make it clear to him the erection is offensive. You have a male, in a bar, looking for someone to hook up with, dancing with the female described above. His perception or her actions is skewed, for whatever reason she sees the situation completely differently than he does. In his mind she is receptive to him he DOESN”T KNOW he’s doing wrong. I’m not saying he isn’t doing wrong, simply that he doesn’t know it.

      Is that her fault? NO. But, if she had given some thought to how her actions may have effected him, she would have at LEAST been aware of his perception of the situation and could have taken steps to better avoid it.

      Look I’m not suggesting that anyone change their behavior, change their mode of dress. I’m suggesting that people simply THINK about what they are doing, and THINK about the perceptions others may have of them.

      Basically I’m trying to give women a tool to aid them in avoiding this constant feeling of victimization. Men are not very complicated creatures. Our thought processes are pretty easy to figure out if, IF a woman would simply take a few seconds to do so.

      I’m not gay, I’m as gay friendly as a straight man could be, but if I hung around in a gay bar wearing a shirt with a pink triangle on it I’m going to create a perception that is going to send an inaccurate signal. Sure, I should be able to wear what ever I want, go where ever I want, and I can. But with that freedom, just like any other freedom there comes responsibility. Now pay close attention to the fact that used the word responsibility, and NOT the word fault.

      There is a big damn difference. Taking responsibility for one’s own actions is not the same as taking responsibility for some one else’s. It means that sometimes you have to look at yourself through the eyes of those around you and take into consideration how you look to them.

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      • And just where exactly does dancing with a guy with an erection give said guy consent to try to do anything with said erection? Could you please lay that out? Clearly there’s a rape culture rule I’ve missed.

        Noticing an erection does not give consent for anything. Dancing with a person does not give consent for any other acts. Saying hello to a person, wearing a short skirt, showing cleavage, walking in to a bar, drinking, etc., are not consent.

        And even if you did go in to a gay bar with a pink triangle shirt, you wouldn’t be automatically consenting to anything, including being hit on, including sexual contact, including sexual assault. And anyone who engages in anything with you – from conversation to dancing to sexual activity – without your explicit consent (hint: clothing is not consent!) is, flat-out, assaulting you.

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      • “I’m not gay, I’m as gay friendly as a straight man could be, but if I hung around in a gay bar wearing a shirt with a pink triangle on it I’m going to create a perception that is going to send an inaccurate signal.”

        And the signal is: Hi. I’m a man. I’m wearing a shirt with a pink triangle on it.

        That is wear the signal stops. There are so assumptions related to that signal. There is no required “responsibility” that comes along with it. That’s the end. You’re a man in a bar in a tee shirt. THATS IT.

        If I am in, say, an S&M club where shirts are optional (which they often are), does that mean I am somehow, possibly, provoking people to come up and touch me? Because it’s out there? Are you saying I should take responsibility for my breasts because they’re on display. Uh oh, Guy sees my breasts and obviously they’re out there. That means that if he comes up and GROPES me, I should have expected that? How is that right?

        Your entire scenario here is wrong, and not only does it disgust me that you’ve posted it and claimed it is entirely logical (try reading it again, and then again, please); it also horrifies me that Carrie Ann (the owner of this blog?) is defending this position.

        Carrie Ann,

        I’m happy for you that you are capable of, at least theoretically, defending yourself in a bar. I really am extremely. I’m shocked that Taylor would be DISAPPOINTED in you if you were assaulted and didn’t or couldn’t defend yourself. As someone who has both been in a similar situation and knows other people in those situations, it is clear to me that you know very little about such incidents. When you’re in a situation that you can’t control, sometimes all you can do is panic. One of the main things women feel in situations of sexual assault is the sense that they “did nothing,” that they “couldn’t protect themselves,” that “they should have done something.” Survivors of sexual assault/violence often go through the self-blaming mentality that you are perpetuating here. The point is that no matter WHAT she did: even if she walked around NAKED, she doesn’t DESERVE to be touched, groped, fondled, or FUCKED against her will.

        And that is the bottom line.

        Thanks to Epiphora for tweeting this.

        A.

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        • I have been touched, groped, cornered, slathered upon and otherwise assaulted in a bar. In school. By a babysitter. In a car. At the movies. I do, indeed, have experience. It’s quite ridiculous of you to assume I do not.
          I think it sucks that some women panic. I have never panicked in a public place. I am capable of shouting, punching, kicking, screaming, pinching and causing a bloody, noisy, loud scene that will stop the person who is assaulting me. I think it sucks that others cannot. Not that they are less than me but sucks in that it makes their lives far more difficult.
          Because I am capable, because Taylor knows this, because we’ve been together damned near a decade and he knows how I react to nearly any situation, I have no problem with him being disappointed in me if I do not behave as I am capable of. I would be disappointed in myself.

          No one is blaming victims. I know it’s a lovely buzz word, a great hype tool.

          But there is absolutely a difference between blaming someone and expecting them to be responsible for themselves.

          Is it my fault if someone humps my leg in a bar? Hell no. Am I responsible for the way I handle it? Absolutely.

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        • ” “I’m not gay, I’m as gay friendly as a straight man could be, but if I hung around in a gay bar wearing a shirt with a pink triangle on it I’m going to create a perception that is going to send an inaccurate signal.”
          And the signal is: Hi. I’m a man. I’m wearing a shirt with a pink triangle on it.
          That is wear the signal stops. There are so assumptions related to that signal. There is no required “responsibility” that comes along with it. That’s the end. You’re a man in a bar in a tee shirt. THATS IT.”

          Yeah, only if you are vapidly obtuse. Seriously? I mean what planet are you from?

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  19. “The human being who sexually assaulted another human being does not automatically lose their humanity when they perform an action other people deem inappropriate.”

    …Wow. You just called sexual assault “an action other people deem inappropriate.”

    Someone who commits sexual assault is someone who did something vile. Someone who believes it’s, rather, someone who did something that “other people deem inappropriate” has an incredibly warped moral sense.

    “I realize that rapes happen, but a rapist is not always some evil man who preys on young pretty women.”

    Of course not. He might be an evil man who preys on people who aren’t young or pretty or female. But, always, a rapist is someone who commits a despicable crime. The fact that you don’t seem to realize that is frankly sickening.

    Reply
    • I think you’re still missing the point.

      Let’s say someone breaks into someone’s house and stabs them. They killed someone. Killing people is wrong.

      Now let’s say someone glances away from the road, maybe to adjust the a/c in the car or change the radio station. They hit someone with their car and that person dies. They killed someone. Killing people is wrong.

      In both situations someone did something terrible, yet the situations are vastly different because the intentions of the killers were not the same. In one situation, the killer stabbed someone, fully intending to cause harm. In the other situation, the person made a mistake and accidentally ran over someone. In both situations the killer is at fault, but in the second situation the victim should have looked to be sure a car wasn’t coming before they walked out in the middle of the road.

      All because human beings are flawed and make mistakes. Not all rapes or sexual assaults are violent and intentional. Recognizing that fact is not sickening.

      Reply
      • I would give you this if the following happened:

        Man A meets Woman A at a bar. They’re dancing and having a great time and she seems to be really into him. She feels a little woozy and needs some air so he takes her outside. They’re talking and she’s somewhat flirtatious. Maybe she leans over. Maybe she touches her chest when she talks. Maybe she even leans in for a kiss. Man A takes this as a sign that she wants to screw around. Man A pushes Woman A against a car and she says No. Man A says “I know you want it. Let’s just do it.” Man A forces Woman A to have sex.
        Man A sexually assaults Woman A.
        Rape it wrong.

        Man A meets Woman A in a bar. They’re dancing together, having a great time, etc. Woman A feels woozy, Man A takes her outside. Man A trips and falls in an oil slick on the ground and accidentally penetrates Woman A with his erection. Man A, in essence, forces Woman A to have sex.
        Man A sexually assaults Woman A.
        Rape is wrong.

        YES. Maybe then, when Man A accidentally falls while switching the radio and accidentally sticks his dick in Woman A while falling on her. Then, maybe, it’s a fucking accident.

        Reply
      • The problem with your argument is that you think that rapists are like the driver, who “made a mistake.” I’m sure that happens, but you’re ignoring the fact that plenty of rapists are actually more like the killer, who know fully what they are doing, and the hurt it will cause, but do it anyway.

        Reply
  20. The diversity of replies to this post go a long way to prove my point. On one side you have those who clearly aren’t seeing things the same way I do. And on the other you have folks who are indeed capable of reading the written word and understanding it’s meaning.

    Some would paint a picture of all members of a given gender as vile loathsome beings with only a single goal in life. Doing so paints the opposite gender as all being weak victimized prey. In short, if every man walking is out to use, molest, rape and otherwise violate every woman he comes in contact with, then every woman walking is a target for such behavior.

    Society could not survive such a dynamic. The days of “club mating” (bashing a prospective mate over the head and dragging them home) if they ever did exist are long gone.

    I do not deny that there are bad men in the world, I’m simply saying that not every unwanted touch is an intentional invasion.

    The image being given to men as a gender is vile and disgusting. It’s unjust, undeserved and harmful. By constantly portraying men as nothing more than sexual predators you are predisposing women to be sexual prey. By the logic employed by the alarmists, if you are a man you are a predator. Such logic is not unilateral, so if what some of you say must be accepted as fact, then the statement every woman is prey must be accepted as well. And I for one simply can’t accept that. There is no way you can convince me that every woman is walking around just waiting to be violated.

    In no way does my post exonerate Captain Humper. In no way does it make her responsible for his actions. I simply want women, and men to realize that there are always at least two different perceptions of any given situation and that we all need to think a little more about what the people around us may be thinking about we are doing.

    Do you realize that some of you are doing the exact same thing to me right now that you are accusing me of? If a woman can say, do, wear, drink whatever the hell she wants, and doesn’t have to be responsible for negative reactions, why can’t a man?

    Reply
    • Yup, you’re right, all of us feminists are just man-haters. You’re right! We just think that all men are brutes and awful and rapists and killers and just despise them!

      Congratulations! You’ve figured it out!

      Oh wait, no, sorry, this is actually one of the oldest arguments against feminism, and slurs against feminism, there is, and it’s actually completely wrong. But good try!

      Reply
    • No one has replied to this thread saying that all men are bad or that all women are weak. Where are you getting this? Can you quote someone? Please?

      What the various PEOPLE in reply to this post are saying is that CONSENT is to be respected. THAT is the bottom line.

      You are coming off here as someone who is condoning violence. You keep saying that you aren’t doing this, but you are. You are stating that there is a reason for sexual violence. You are giving the rapist an out.

      “Well, she was coming onto me. I had an erection. She knew I had an erection. She didn’t say anything when I touched her ass. She wanted me to screw her.”

      “She said No, but I knew she meant yes.”

      No. No and no and no and no. I don’t care about the gender of the rapist. It doesn’t matter. Don’t you see that? If someone says NO, it STOPS. Just because someone doesn’t say no, it doesn’t mean YES. If someone looks afraid, that means stop. If someone is clearly not happy, that means STOP. If someone CANNOT CONSENT, that doesn’t mean “Go ahead and fuck me.” NO.

      I reassert. If I am walking down the street naked, in a dark alleyway, with $100 strapped to my tits and a buttplug shoved up my ass, that doesn’t mean “Hi. Let’s fuck now.” And it doesn’t mean I should have to ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY for someone coming up to me and sexually assaulting me.

      Because no matter what I am wearing or not wearing, no matter what I am or am not doing with my body, no matter WHAT I am putting out there: Unless I look at whomever my partner is, regardless of their race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc, and say “Yes. Let’s fuck,” that means “No.”

      Reply
  21. Oh, come on, Taylor! Don’t you know that asking women to take responsibility for their own safety is akin to victim blaming and rape apologizing? Sheesh… You men!

    (You know I’m joking, right? I agree with you, even if that makes me “disgusting”. We’ll be disgusting together.)

    Reply
  22. “By constantly portraying men as nothing more than sexual predators you are predisposing women to be sexual prey.”

    Wait, I’m confused here. Who portrayed men as nothing more than sexual predators?

    “What I’m getting at, is maybe it’s time to take a good long look at your own behavior. Because if your body is being groped, used, assaulted, grabbed, handled or otherwise touched without your permission as often as you say, it would seem that you are doing something to provoke it. ”

    Why, that would seem to be you. And only you. There are vile, disgusting people out there. They aren’t characterized by an XY chromosome structure or a penis. They are characterized by not respecting a lack of consent.

    “Do you realize that some of you are doing the exact same thing to me right now that you are accusing me of? If a woman can say, do, wear, drink whatever the hell she wants, and doesn’t have to be responsible for negative reactions, why can’t a man?”

    This is pure obvious-at-a-glance bullshit. Sarahbear’s gotten the same response you have despite being female. It’s not about “a man vs. a woman.” It’s about “doing nothing wrong vs. blaming someone who was sexually assaulted for her own sexual assault.”

    Reply
    • “It’s about “doing nothing wrong vs. blaming someone who was sexually assaulted for her own sexual assault.””

      And therein lay the root of the problem. At NO POINT did I blame her for anything he did.

      I’m simply trying to get her, and others to THINK. To realize that what you do directly affects those around you. To simply take into consideration the fact that others may perceive your actions differently than you do or intend for them to.

      I’m also trying to make all of you aware of the disservice you are inadvertently doing other women. By painting men as a whole as vile predatory creatures you are predisposing other women to feel like prey. To BE prey. In other words you aren’t helping anyone, you’re making it worse.

      Reply
      • Try to see it from her point of view. Please.

        “You, the assaulted, did X, Y, and Z. You threw in these variables to the equation.”
        “So, it’s my fault. I brought this on myself.”
        “No. I’m saying that you need to man up to X, Y, and Z. You wore a short skirt. You danced provocatively. You invited this guy in.”
        “So, I invited him in. I let him do these things to me. I said it was okay? But wait, I didn’t say it was okay.”
        “Just think about it. You said it was okay, but I don’t blame you for him raping you.”
        “Wait. What? You just said I have to accept that I invited him into my personal space, into my vagina, but when he actually took the step, then the blame shifts.”

        What? The point is, she didn’t do those things. She did wear a provocative dress. So what? She did dance with him intimately in a crowded club. So what? These variables don’t connect to a result.

        Reply
  23. “Whether intentional or not she has to do something to encourage him. ”

    Just because you, apparently, somehow wrote that without seeing it.

    “Whether intentional or not she has to do something to encourage him. ”

    Yes. You did blame her for what he did. Saying that you aren’t saying what you said doesn’t mean you actually didn’t say it, just as saying “By painting men as a whole as vile predatory creatures …” over and over again doesn’t change the fact that you’re the only commenter here who has painted men as a whole as vile predatory creatures.

    Oh, and I’m not a woman.

    Reply
    • “Saying that you aren’t saying what you said doesn’t mean you actually didn’t say it”

      LOL. Well said.

      Reply
  24. Very clever rhetorical tactic, Taylor: “On one side you have those who clearly aren’t seeing things the same way I do.” Ok, fair enough. But then you go on, “And on the other you have folks who are indeed capable of reading the written word and understanding it’s meaning.”

    So because I disagree with you I am incapable of reading comprehension? I’ve never read this blog before, nor commented, but I’ve got no problem saying, Fuck You. It’s pretty damned arrogant to decide that you are so absolutely right that because we disagree we must just be intellectual inferiors who can’t understand what we read.

    I read everything you wrote and comprehended it perfectly. And my comprehension is that what you wrote was nothing more than the typical victim blaming rape culture bullshit that gets spouted every time any story comes up about a person being sexually assulted.

    And, FTR, I am a man, and one thing that ticks me off about that bullshit is the implication that we men are such slaves to our dicks that we can’t keep it in our pants if a woman dresses sexily. Guess what? Even if a woman is *naked*, it doesn’t give me the right to touch her in a way she doesn’t want. Period. Nor does it give me the right to make blatantly sexual advances, absent of any conversation or discussion of the subject, and just expect that she’ll say no if she doesn’t like it. The need for explicit consent, especially with people who are unfamiliar with each other, should be the default position in a civilized society where people respect the boundaries of others’ bodies.

    Reply
    • I’ve grown tired of this. I can only explain myself so many times before I have to come to the realization that no, you aren’t ever going to understand it.

      I never blamed her for his actions. I never said, nor implied that it was her fault. I simply tried to get folks to understand perceptions. “Whether intentional or not she has to do something to encourage him.” Again it’s a matter of perception. Again a matter of people who understand it, and people who can’t.

      Perception, some perceive that statement as victim blaming. It’s not. While others perceive it for what it is. To her, her behavior did nothing to invite his unwanted contact. To him, by his perception, she did. His perception of her actions lead him to believe she’d be receptive to him.

      I’m NOT saying it’s her fault. I’m simply saying that people would do well to consider the perceptions others may have of them and their actions.

      Reply
      • But you ARE. Now you’re saying that what you originally said was “She said it was okay. Regardless of whether the words came out of her mouth, she brought this on herself. She said yes. But her lips weren’t moving. So her BODY consented. Her movements consented. ”

        No.

        Reply
        • That is absolutely not what was said.

          Can a woman move in such a way as to make a man think she’s interested in him, even erroneously? Yes. It happens a lot. Dancing is a prime example of when this does happen, actually.

          But just because he PERCEIVED her movements as interest, doesn’t mean they were. Or that he has the right to touch her in unwelcome ways.

          No one has said that there was consent given in the situation described. What has been said is that a person’s actions may have been perceived differently than they intended them to be and hump meister fucked up and acted poorly based on those perceptions.

          Reply
  25. I’ve gone out dancing with friends a couple of times, when I was not drinking/was not dressed “sexily” in any way/was not doing anything other then just having a good time. And during those times I’ve had to deal with guys attempting to grind against me, and I could feel their erections. Not pleasant.

    This didn’t happen because I was doing something that somehow attracted the inappropriate creeps, this happened because these guys just automatically assumed that woman dancing=available humpable orifice.

    I was lucky in that moving away/saying no was all it took for them to go away. Because sometimes bars and clubs perefer to throw out the person complaining about assault, than the assailant. Which is unfair, and more common than people would like to think.

    Point is, saying that there is a “right” way for women to deal with assault is wrong.

    Reply
    • Being able to feel an erection while dancing with a man isn’t because he assumes that every woman is a humpable oriface. Erections are the bodies natural, biological response to stimulation. When your dancing with a guy and your rump or thigh is in constant contact with his groin, he’s likely to get an erection. Women are fortunate to have our erectile tissue tucked up inside of our bodies and we don’t get dirty looks every time we’re turned on in public.

      Reply
  26. No Taylor, those are words I used to illustrate to you that what you’re saying comes down to a sentence as patently ridiculous as the one you referred to. Apparently, you just don’t get it and never will.

    Let’s just ban dancing. That way we women won’t send the minority of guys with no impulse control into a sexual frenzy when their cocks get brushed up against.

    Let me say this once. loud and clear, it is NEVER a women’s fault if she gets assaulted or raped. It is one person’s fault, it is the assailant’s fault. She is not complicit because of anything she did, anything she wore, anything she said. If she rebuffs a man’s advances, if she says no, he backs off. End of story.

    Saying you can defend yourself, Carrie Ann, is so missing the point that I’m rendered nearly speechless. I’ve had to defend myself in clubs also, but it’s my hope that one day we won’t have to do that because people, not just men, will have learned a very simple lesson – that no means no.

    What would you teach your son, Carrie Ann? That if a woman is dressed provocatively and dances with him a bit too closely she’s just implied permission for him to back her into a corner and touch her? Would you tell your daughter she deserved it of that happened to her? Or perhaps, it would be best to teach our kids to respect people’s boundaries, to ask and not to assume, to accept that no means no and to walk away gracefully when rebuffed.

    I am so saddened by some of the attitudes here. You know, I don’t walk in the park at night, and I’d like to. I envy the fact that men can do this and not worry about being assaulted. Still, if I were to walk in park after dark and I did get assaulted, it isn’t my fault. My attacker is the only one to blame whether I’m wearing bootie shorts or a burka.

    Reply
    • Tess,

      NO one has said any of the stuff you’re saying. No one.

      Seriously.

      Where does this come from?

      Where does anyone say it’s “okay” for anyone to touch anyone else without permission?

      For me, personally? I realize it happens and that the only power I have is how I deal with it.

      Just because I deal with it by a) protecting myself b) calling the police c) making a scene so other see it d)communicating with the person doing it by clearly stating the words “NO” and “get away from me”, doesn’t mean I feel it’s okay for them to have done it or that it’s my (or any other victim’s) fault if they have.

      It means I use the power I have and take away some of the power of anyone who may try to assault me in any way.

      Where does that turn into ANY of the stuff you’ve said? This “attitude” you’re saddened by…

      It stems from mob mentality and perceptions of what has been said that DO NOT MATCH what has actually BEEN said.

      For the record, in response to your envy of men…
      If I polled my group of friends? I would bet my next paycheck more of our husbands have been groped inappropriately than any of my girlfriends.
      And the only physical assault and inappropriate touching that has been done to me in my adult life? Has been done by women.

      Reply
    • Again, I NEVER said or implied it was her fault. YOU and others are missing that point.

      I’m saying she needs to be aware of his perception of what she does.

      ” I envy the fact that men can do this and not worry about being assaulted. ”
      Wow, what world do you live in? Cuz I’d sure like to move there. Men don’t have to worry about being assaulted…tell that to the guy who mugged me.

      Reply
  27. “I never blamed her for his actions. I never said, nor implied that it was her fault. I simply tried to get folks to understand perceptions. “Whether intentional or not she has to do something to encourage him.” Again it’s a matter of perception.”

    The claim that she did something to encourage him is not a matter of perception. It’s a matter of fact.

    “Perception, some perceive that statement as victim blaming. It’s not. While others perceive it for what it is. To her, her behavior did nothing to invite his unwanted contact. To him, by his perception, she did.”

    Is this someone you know personally, then? Since you feel you can make such bold claims about what his perception is? Or just someone who did something you would do, and so you’re sure you know exactly why he did it, and don’t want people condemning him for it?

    You’re right about one thing. No matter how many times you repeat that you didn’t say what you said which can still be seen by scrolling up, most people here won’t believe it. You don’t get to define reality. You don’t get to say that “she did something to encourage it” is a statement about perceptions rather than a statement that she did something.

    “Being able to feel an erection while dancing with a man”

    Are you aware of the difference between “I was dancing with them” and “they attempted to grind against me”?

    Reply
    • Ok I get it. You refuse flat out refuse to see what is actually written. You refuse to actually get the point. To actually understand the REALITY of what is said.

      You also can’t tell the difference between myself and sarabear.

      Reply
  28. Who am I going to believe, you or my lying eyes, eh?

    Replying to two people in one post =/= being unable to tell the difference between them.

    Reply
  29. You know, there is a huge difference between saying, it’s her fault, and saying she needs to be more aware of how she’s being perceived.

    And it amazes the hell out of me that some folks can’t see that difference.

    Reply
    • You know, you don’t know me. If you did, you would never accuse me of being perceived in a certain way. I’m a brash and bitchy girl that usually doesn’t take shit from people. I call them out for touching me (in this case I was so shocked and scared that all I could do was run for the door). I don’t really dance (the guy came up behind me while I was moving a little to the music, at the bar– NOT on the dance floor. I moved, he followed). I don’t go to clubs, but it was my friend’s birthday. The night in question? Here is the “slutty” outfit I was wearing: http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs073.ash2/36973_756801950679_1802414_43802925_7532983_n.jpg

      You want to tell me what part of that screams, “Grope me! Hump me! Try to penetrate me!” Because, from where I’m standing, that’s far from revealing.

      None of what I just said should even matter, though. I still wouldn’t have encouraged anything. I was going to stay out of this post, but I felt a need to say that you don’t know me, you’ve never been out with me, and you have no fucking idea what I’m like when I’m out. In fact, I’m the last person to be acting like a promiscuous drunk person. I despise it when people get like that.

      I’m not coming back, so if you respond, I won’t see it. But I just felt the need to say something here.

      Reply
      • Britni the VadgeWig’s endless hypocrisy and lack of personal responsibility should come as no surprise to anyone who’s read her blog. It barely even merits a mention, but I couldn’t resist replying to this statement “I’m the last person to be acting like a promiscuous drunk person. I despise it when people get like that” with her own words……

        Her blog reads,

        “He came back in the house, and went on and on and on, in front of 3 of his friends, about how much better The New Girl was than me. He listed off reasons why she was better, and why I wasn’t good enough.
        And that’s when I snapped. Drunk Britni put forth a challenge: “If you like her as much as you say you do, if you’re as serious about her as you claim to be, then you won’t fuck me right now.” Of course he fucked me! The sex was 100% consensual.”

        In her own words, drunk and promiscuous. And -apparently – despicable.

        Reply
  30. This is going no where. Everything the needs to be said has been. Some folks see reason, some folks don’t. Some folks understand personal responsibility some folks don’t. The end.

    Reply
    • Indeed. Some people understand that a rapist bears sole responsibility for his actions. Other folks manifestly don’t.

      Reply
        • “Whether intentional or not she has to do something to encourage him.” I could keep repeating it, but you know? You have to have your eyes screwed tight shut to not see it.

          Then there’s Sarahbear’s “car accident” analogies.

          Reply
          • Ahhh.

            See, I’m reading it differently than you are, I think.

            A big, fluffy cupcake with cream cheese icing encourages me to buy it, eat it, gain 27 pounds.

            But, yanno, it’s not the cupcake’s fault. I don’t BLAME the cupcake. The CUPCAKE is not responsible for what I do.

            I am.

            As is the rapist. The humper. The whatever.

            Being stunning, enticing, really great to look at, really tempting to be near, doesn’t make it okay for someone to touch you without permission.

            None of those things equal consent. None of those things mean the offender is right. None of those things mean you bear responsibility for anyone else’s actions but your own.

            *shrug*

            I think it really comes down to “I hear this when I hear that word” and “you hear that when you hear this word”.

            And taking the meaning the author gave the word, not the one you decide to give it.

            Reply
            • Quick difference here:

              The cupcake is not a person. The cupcake is an inanimate object. It’s sole purpose in existence is to be consumed. That is why it was created.

              I am not a cupcake. I am a person. My purpose in existence is too varied to fit into this little internet box. I have a brain. I have reasoning skills. I have expressions and the ability to express them. I was created for millions of reasons, none of which include consumption against my will.

              The rapist, whomever he or she is, is also a person. S/He is a person with reasoning skills. S/he has a brain. S/he has expressions and the ability to express them.

              Our ability to reason, to express ourselves, to be intuitive, to be HUMAN, separates us from the cupcakes.

              (Wow, there’s a quote of the day for you.)

              Reply
    • Let’s put the personal responsibility where it belongs: On the man who, without explicitly seeking consent, chose to touch Britni. He is the *only* one in this scenario who did something wrong.

      Taylor, you may not agree with wearing cute dresses, drinking in public, or dancing in clubs, but unwanted contact is *not ever* a rational response to any of those things. It’s not even a rational response to a straight man who goes into a gay bar wearing a triangle on his t-shirt.

      The responsibility to get consent — enthusiastic consent — is on the person initiating the contact. Without it, that person is fully in the wrong.

      Reply
      • OK READ WHAT IS WRITTEN NOT WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANT.

        In no way am I absolving the humper of wrong doing. At no point am I blaming her for his actions.

        Her safety, her body = Her responsibility. A responsible woman will be careful, will make sure that her behavior does not create the illusion of consent. She will give thought to how her actions, style of dress, words and reactions can be perceived by those around her, male and female alike.

        If a woman gives no thought to how she is perceived she is ill prepared to avoid unwanted contact.

        This isn’t to say a woman is to be judged by what she wears says or does(of course if not by those things then…what?) She simply needs to think of those things, of how they are perceived by others.

        In appropriate behavior is never a rational response, and I never said it was. But there are times that it will come as no surprise.

        People touch, when allowed to touch they will touch more, and more until the touching leads to fucking or they are told to stop. It’s a fact of life. Right or wrong it’s a part of the world we live in. The responsible person, the smart person looks at themselves, and asks themselves what message am i sending out? how am I being perceived? And if the answer to that question is NOT what they want they do something about it.

        The irresponsible person blindly carries themselves through any given situation, and is surprised by inappropriate or unwanted reactions. No they aren’t to blame for it. But EVERYONE is responsible for their own actions. To absolve anyone of that responsibility is foolish.

        Blame and responsibility are to different things. With blame there is an implication of guilt, of wrong doing. Responsibility carries no such implication. I do not blame her. But I hold her responsible for herself. I expect her to make responsible decisions to ensure her own safety, her own security.

        “Her” being a general term and not any specific woman.

        Reply
        • “This isn’t to say a woman is to be judged by what she wears says or does(of course if not by those things then…what?) ”

          …Could you possibly be a bit more blatant about wanting to continue saying the same ridiculous, immoral, grossly offensive things you’ve been saying from the beginning and maintain plausible deniability too?

          Let me see if I can possibly put this in words you can understand.

          In the part of that post I just quoted, you asserted both A and Not-A. In this case, A being “a woman is to be judged by what she says, wears, and does.” Not-A is, “I never said a woman is to be judged by what she says, wears, or does.”

          In your posts ever since this thread started, you have repeatedly asserted another A and Not-A. A being, “Britni was responsible for the man at the club assaulting her.” Not-A being, “I never blamed Britni for the man at the club assaulting her.” Your repeated insistence that you never blamed Britni don’t mean we’re misreading or that what you said was ambiguous. They mean you and Carrie Ann are both lying. Badly.

          “Seeing as how her story has now changed a bit, I can not venture a guess as to what really happened though.”

          She said what happened. It was not ambiguous. You decided to write your loathsome (but maintaining plausible deniability, look at all the times you said you weren’t blaming her, as well as all the times you said she caused it!) victim-blaming screed. Her “story” has not changed. Your effort to suggest that she’s the one who’s being dishonest here, interspersed with your insistences that we pay attention to what you say you said and not what we can see on the screen that you said, is phenomenally hypocritical.

          This is me quoting another person again. It doesn’t mean I think you and Carrie Ann are the same person.

          “A big, fluffy cupcake with cream cheese icing encourages me to buy it, eat it, gain 27 pounds.

          But, yanno, it’s not the cupcake’s fault. I don’t BLAME the cupcake. The CUPCAKE is not responsible for what I do.”
          Britni is a human being, not a cupcake. If you say “a cupcake encourages me to eat it,” you’re clearly either speaking metaphorically or delusional. If you say, “Britni encouraged the attentions of the man who assaulted her at the club”–you know, the way your husband did in his post here–well, you’re still clearly delusional or much, much worse.

          Reply
          • Ahhhh.

            See, I do think it’s possible Britni encouraged the attentions of the man.

            In her blog, she states that she was dancing with him. With. Encouraging his attentions. (She states differently here in comments but on the blog it says “At one point I was dancing with a guy, and I felt what I thought was an erection against me. I shrugged it off, but as we continued dancing, it became very clear that it was, indeed, an erection, and now he was rubbing it on me.”)

            Encouraging attentions does not equal encouraging assault.

            You are capable of seeing that, yes?

            That those are two different things?

            That it is quite possible to encourage someone’s attention and NOT encourage assault? That assault and attention are two different things?

            Reply
            • But she wasn’t encouraging it. She says, clearly she shrugged it off. As in. That isn’t an erection. That’s just, IDK, his pants. That’s what I would assume. But nope, that’s an erection. Clearly, an erection. I THINK ILL WALK AWAY NOW. That’s not encouragement.

              Reply
          • But she has changed her story.

            On her blog: ” “At one point I was dancing with a guy, and I felt what I thought was an erection against me. I shrugged it off, but as we continued dancing, it became very clear that it was, indeed, an erection, and now he was rubbing it on me.”

            In the comments here: “I don’t really dance (the guy came up behind me while I was moving a little to the music, at the bar– NOT on the dance floor. I moved, he followed”

            She went from consensually dancing with the guy, feeling and erection then continuing to dance with him to not dancing because he came up behind her while she was bopping around in place standing at the bar? I call that a change in story. Now, saying she was at the bar and they were dancing there she freaked and left and when she was back at the bar, he assumed they would pick up where they left off because she didn’t say anything against him or his actions.

            THAT DOES NOT GIVE HIM THE RIGHT TO DO ANYTHING TO HER. NO RIGHT AT ALL.

            However, if you don’t tell someone NO they don’t know you don’t want their advances. Especially a drunk in a club who was grinding his erection on you moments prior where you clearly noticed and continued to dance with him and did NOT stop dancing and did NOT tell him NO, STOP or how inappropriate it was. If you’ve danced in a club before with random men, you’ve had it happen before more than likely so it couldn’t have been any more shocking this time than it was any other time when you had no problem telling guys to fuck off and leave you be.

            I agree that this guy was wrong. I agree he was wrong to put his hands on her and try to hump her from behind. I agree no one should have to put up with anything like that.

            BUT… the signals she was sending were clearly seemingly very mixed ones and to the guy, his advances probably didn’t seem unwanted considering she continued to dance with him when he was clearly aroused and then didn’t stand up for herself. You can’t expect someone to know you don’t want anything to do with them when the signals you’re sending are saying otherwise.

            Reply
        • “This isn’t to say a woman is to be judged by what she wears says or does(of course if not by those things then…what?)”

          Um. Really?
          Wow.

          *Wow* I don’t even know what to say here. I can’t even… I’m completely and utterly blown away by how fucked up that comment is. Really. Wow.

          Reply
          • Oh, Ok…since we can’t judge a woman by her actions, by her mode of dress, by her words…

            Just what the fuck do we go by? The size of her tits? Her hair color? The shape of her ass?

            So are big tits good? If she has great big honkin jugs is she a good person then?

            Are only brunettes decent people?

            Does she have to have a perfect heart shaped ass to be worth talking to?

            Jesus fucking Christ…did you think about your post at all before you sent it? You do realize that you come across about as mentally adept as a window licker right?

            Reply
  31. “You know, there is a huge difference between saying, it’s her fault, and saying she needs to be more aware of how she’s being perceived.

    And it amazes the hell out of me that some folks can’t see that difference.”

    To my regret, it doesn’t surprise me at all that someone would claim, and repeat over and over, that “Whether intentional or not she has to do something to encourage him.” isn’t victim-blaming. Or that someone else would insist it’s somehow possible to accidentally rape someone.
    “I’m shutting it down,”

    What a shock.

    Reply
  32. oh cmon taylor, give me a break…she asked for it?…clothing is clothing…no one is welcome to come up and harrass me no matter what i am clothed in…go to a sex positive event…where there is so little groping without consent it could be a church…and the outfits are “provocative” as they come…(excuse my spelling please)

    Reply
    • I never said she asked for it. I’m say had she been mindful of her own behavior, and mindful of how it was being perceived she’d have had a better chance of avoiding any unwanted contact.

      Seeing as how her story has now changed a bit, I can not venture a guess as to what really happened though.

      Reply
  33. Bravo Taylor,

    Seriously…. if you’re female and a guy is grinding his penis into you on the dance floor, just knee him in his family jewels.

    No more boner.

    And he wont dance with you anymore.

    Really quite simple.

    And as a woman you will get a rep as a woman who will Rochambeau a dude if he gets outta line… Not cry about it the next day on a blog.

    Reply
  34. “Let’s put the personal responsibility where it belongs.”

    Oh yes please let’s do exactly that! It belongs with the person, that’s why it’s called PERSONal responsibility. It isn’t” called resposibility for some asshat leg humper”, now is it?

    Reply
  35. As put beautifully by my partner, you should be able to go naked to a bar with arrows pointing to your crotch and a sign saying “FUCK ME.” – nothing should happen without your explicit verbal consent. Nothing.

    I’m appalled by the misogyny here.

    Reply
    • ” you should be able to go naked to a bar with arrows pointing to your crotch and a sign saying “FUCK ME.” – nothing should happen without your explicit verbal consent. Nothing”

      That is the most ludicrous pile of self indulgent, irresponsible crap I’ve ever seen in my life.

      First off, it’s illegal. Secondly it’s just plain stupid.

      Reply
    • It’s quite easy to create a situation that would exist only in a vacuum and declare this to be how things should be in our society and all who recognize the impossibility of such a situation as misogynist.

      Once again, all anybody wants to read into this is that somehow Taylor hates women and is a victim-blamer and slut-shamer.

      But you know what – in any other situation where someone is repeatedly attacked when they put themselves in situations where such an attack is likely, we do point to the actions of that person as leading toward the end result and changing said actions as a way to prevent further victimization – as in Taylor’s mugging example.

      Rapists and predators will tell you flat out that they seek victims, they seek people exhibiting certain behaviors that they recognize make them easy targets. So, explain to me why it’s some how wrong to suggest that if a potential victim is mindful of this and makes adjustments out of self-preservation, they just might save themselves from being a victim in the first place.

      Are some of the behaviors people suggest out of line? Yeah, sometimes, but sometimes they make perfect, logical, reasonable sense and you still attack them as victim-blaming.

      If we lived in a world where women COULD behave as they wanted, walk naked through a bar as you put, then we could expect to be safe in any situation. The problem is, we don’t. As a result, when you suggest that women do as they please with complete disregard for the fact that some behaviors increase the risk of being attacked, you actually become an enabler of that attack.

      I’ve said it before and I will say it again – I would much rather not be attacked than not feel to blame for being attacked. Until such time as we live in a world where all men can and will respect the right of a woman to give consent or not give consent to sexual behavior – I will continue to advise women that it is always better to do what you can to remain safe than end up traumatized or dead. And if this helps just one woman prevent her own rape or attack – I can SO live with the label of being a victim-blamer.

      Reply
  36. I think it basically boils down to some personal animosity towards Britni and the assumption that she made up, or embellished, what happened. If that is the case there’s really nothing anyone can do about it, but you should at least own up to it. But to bring all rape victims into the equation by saying if you don’t fight someone off then we should be disappointed in them, the victims, is making me nauseous. Everyone handles trauma in different ways. I always thought I would fight and scream but in the moment I was just scared. Scared and alone and overpowered. For you to tell me I should be dissapointed in myself because of that, when you will never be able to comprehend the dissapointment I already feel, is astounding. The funny thing is, I don’t even feel anything about my own rape. It happened a long time ago and over a decade to come to terms with what happened (I’m 24 by the way). But reading those comments was like a bunch in the gut (I’m being serious).

    Look, it’s not your job to coddle my feelings. I realize you have the freedom to say whatever you want and that I have the freedom to disagree. But if you’re still confident in this post after you strip out all the personal anger and realize that your making rape victims fee like shit, then I don’t really know what to say. You know that saying by Mark Twain that says we should stop and reflect anytime we find ourselves on the side of the majority? Well, I think we should stop and reflect whenever we find ourselves on the side of rapists and child molesters or using the very arguments they make themselves. I’m sure you guys are good people, but this post is just depressing.

    Reply
  37. In reality, I don’t really give two squirts of piss about your feelings. I didn’t rape you so I’m not responsible for anything that happened to you or any loving memories you have of the incident as a result o reading what I write.

    As per animosity towards Britni….well as she so eloquently pointed out, I don’t even know her and therefore can’t possibly have any feelings toward her what so ever.

    My effort is simply to get women to realize that they can PREVENT unwanted contact. They stop it BEFORE it happens by using a little common sense. Will that stop the intentional rape? Will it stop the guy who is going to rape them? No. But it will stop the guy who just doesn’t realize he got his hands some where they shouldn’t be before he puts them there.

    I’m trying to get people to realize that if they simply take a moment to think about what someone else may be thinking they can save themselves a LOT of grief.

    I

    Reply
  38. I have only one other thing to say on this matter, and will not be responding further.

    If you don’t like what’s written here, by all means fuck off and read something else.

    Reply
  39. I’m not going to rehash some of the arguments that have already been made, but I do have a comment on a slightly different point. You say,

    “No woman deserves to be treated like a whore, however is she happens to be wearing the uniform.”

    I wonder, how do you think whores deserve to be treated? Do sex workers, by virtue of their job and/or how they are dressed, invite and deserve rape?

    Reply
    • I think I love you for this point. I hate when the word “whore” is used as an insult towards someone. Why is being a sex worker something worth hurling hurtful words?

      Reply
      • Thank you. I teach sociology to college students, and one of my favorite exercises is talking about language, gender and sexuality– the hurtful words we have for men versus women. This sometimes opens up discussion about sex workers, which I think other teachers sadly shy away from. Sex workers are people, and people deserve to not be raped. The end.

        Reply
    • I know I said I wasn’t going to respond further, but this has to be addressed.

      When a man hands a whore money, and she takes it, you’re damn right she’s given consent to being touched sexually. At that point it’s her fucking job to accept his touch. Sure, they’ll negotiate the terms of that transaction but once she’s paid, she’s his for that time.

      So maybe I should have worded that slightly differently. Yes. The following is more appropriate. ” No woman deserves to be treated like a whore, they’ve not yet paid for”

      For the record, I have no problem with whores, in fact if it weren’t for the risks involved I’d probably hire them from time to time.

      Reply
      • She is *not* his for that time. She can, at any point, stop consenting to what was negotiated beforehand and she no longer would have to perform any act. If he forces her to or insists? That is assault. Sex workers are deserve just as much respect as any other woman you would have sex with and that includes remaining her own boss.

        Reply
        • If she takes the money, and refuses to to perform, she’s a fraud. She’s no different from a mechanic taking your money and then refusing to fix your car.

          I personally don’t see a damn thing wrong with the word whore. I don’t see it as an insult, I don’t use it as an insult. Someone who trades sex for money is a whore. Simple as that.

          I personally do not see prostitution as criminal, even though the government does.

          She/he takes the money, she/he should perform the act paid for.

          Now if the John moves outside of the negotiated terms, that’s a different story. But no she does not have the right to simply change her mind, unless of course she’s going to give the money back.

          Reply
        • Oh for the love of fuck. Really? REALLY?

          Of fucking course if any woman suddenly says no, revoked consent, things stop. Of course it’s assault if you don’t stop.

          No one said otherwise.

          A sex worker consents to sexual touch when hired for sex work. Being able to revoke that consent doesn’t change that it IS different to sexually touch a sex worker who has consented than to sexually touch someone who is not.

          Where does this shit come from?

          A person says one thing and the next person has to add to what they say, spinning it into something other than what they said. Why?

          No where did anyone say that paying a sex worker means she can’t revoke consent. Only that terms are negotiated and she has, indeed, AGREED to be touched sexually.

          Not that she can’t change her mind but that she HAS consented.

          This is insanely fucking fucking. Insanely.

          “his for that time”

          How does that turn into “his, to do anything he wants, no matter if it was agreed upon or not, and she cannot change her mind or, if she does, he can attack her and do what he wants anyhow”?

          REALLY?

          Lmao.

          This is where drama gets amusing as hell, when people start assuming the worst and adding thoughts and meanings to what someone has said that are not, were not, will not ever be, there.

          And some of you went to college to learn to think this way?

          Reply
      • Thank you for clarifying, I think this makes your view very clear. I wonder how you feel about marriage– does a woman marrying a man imply a sexual contract and thus, consent?

        Reply
        • You really want my view on marriage?

          Before reading any further remember, you asked I’m simply answering.

          Marriage is bullshit. It’s a piece of paper that entitles one person from a relationship to take half the other persons shit when the relationship goes bad. I don’t need a piece of paper to prove I love my woman. I do that every day by looking in her eyes, by letting her see through my own eyes what’s in my heart. I prove it by being here with her, beside her, behind her, in front of her where ever she needs me to be. She’s mine, in our dynamic yes I have blanket consent from her to use her body when, where, and however I want.

          What other people make of marriage is up to them and doesn’t mean dick to me.

          Reply
          • That’s fair enough. I’m not particularly fond of the institution either, I was just wondering if you equate a sex worker’s transaction with a customer to a woman’s marriage vow, in that both constitute consent and sexual access. I’m speaking generally, not of your personal relationship.

            Reply
      • Uh, no. Just no no no no no. Accepting money does not change a sex-worker from a human being into an orifice. Any sex-worker still has the right to say how his or her body will be used and to call a halt to the proceedings if things go sideways.

        Taylor, please take a big step back from this conversation and LISTEN to the people who are responding to your post. LEARN from what we’re saying to you. Multiple survivors of sexual assault are trying to help educate you.

        Please listen to them.

        Reply
          • “If she takes the money, and refuses to to perform, she’s a fraud. She’s no different from a mechanic taking your money and then refusing to fix your car.”
            “But no she does not have the right to simply change her mind, unless of course she’s going to give the money back.”

            Reply
        • “Any sex-worker still has the right to say how his or her body will be used and to call a halt to the proceedings if things go sideways.”

          This I completely agree with.

          Simply deciding she/he doesn’t want to perform…no, unless the money is refunded.

          Arbitrarily, I pay a whore X amount of money for a blow job. I expect the blow job. If the whore refuses, I expect my money back. Will I force my dick in their mouth? NO. But I will have my money back. If during the blow job that was negotiated for I try to get more than the blow job, I’m out of line. But I have every right to expect the blow job.

          And I would gladly learn from you, IF you had anything to teach me but irresponsible behavior. “you should be able to go naked to a bar with arrows pointing to your crotch and a sign saying “FUCK ME.” – nothing should happen without your explicit verbal consent. Nothing”. Excellent example of irresponsible behavior. Not blamable, irresponsible. Do us all a favor and figure out the difference.

          Reply
          • You do realize that I was making an extreme example, correct? Obviously it’s illegal to go nude in public. I’m not an idiot. I was just trying to say that you saying a girl could be encouraging behavior by wearing certain things is, well, misogynist as fuck and not acceptable.

            Reply
            • Also, sexual assault is a bigger crime than public indecency and about a thousand times more vile. Please quit focusing on the details and try to see the big picture. You’ve hurt multiple assault victims with this post and I think an apology to those with hurt feelings is beyond warranted.

              Reply
          • Where does “irresponsible behavior” start?

            Was it “irresponsible” of me to be 8 years old, sleeping in bed with my Strawberry Shortcake nightie hiked up over my bottom when my dad first started assaulting me?

            No?

            Would it have been “irresponsible” when I was 15? or 21?

            Is it “irresponsible” for a woman to wear a too-revealing outfit? Who decides what is too-revealing? In what decade is it too-revealing?

            What if she’s wearing the too-revealing outfit in her own backyard and someone peeps over the fence before attacking her? Is that “irresponsible”?

            Is it “irresponsible” if she wears the too-revealing outfit in her own living room and someone spies her through the window before attacking her?

            What if she’s sleeping naked in bed and she leaves the window unlocked? Is that “irresponsible”?

            Do you see what I’m getting at? ANYTHING could be considered “irresponsible” or not “irresponsible” by someone. Anything or nothing could cause an assault. Therefore the responsibility AND the blame can only go on one person — the person who chose to commit the assault.

            This is what we are trying so hard to teach you, Taylor and Carrie Ann. This is what I hope you learn from all of this.

            Reply
            • “irresponsible behavior” is when you’re dancing with someone who you think is grinding an erection against you, shrugging it off, realizing he’s rubbing said erection on you and NOT standing up for yourself and letting that person know that is not acceptable and that you’re not going to tolerate it. If you don’t say anything and keep letting it happen, you’re sending a signal that their behavior is being tolerated and accepted. That is irresponsible. Everyone keeps getting hung up on the outfits and the slut shaming and the victim blaming because you can’t argue or defend not saying anything in a situation that you’re uncomfortable and not okay with when something should have been said or some action should have been taken.

              I don’t care what anyone’s wearing. I’ve had my ass and tits grabbed before while dancing in clubs. And they were not tolerated and not handled with silence. I told them off and in some cases got help from security for the few guys who mistook me for playing hard to get.

              I’m not saying it is her fault because it wasn’t. The assaulter is always in charge of their own actions and always at fault for what they do to others. It isn’t hard to look at this scenario and see how the dumb guy in the club got the wrong idea about this situation. It wasn’t because of how she dressed or how she looked, it was because she didn’t say anything to let him know his behavior wasn’t welcome.

              Reply
  40. Wow. I don’t quite think it is possible to express my hurt and disgust at this post and the resulting convo via a droid, so I will just shake my head in disbelif, and thank those of yoou who have stood up for survivors (of all genders). As someone who was assaulted while wearing sweats and a tshirt, but couldn’t stop it because of partially illogical fear, I can safely say this post perpetuates rape culture.

    Reply
  41. I have been sexually assaulted in jeans and a tee shirt, onstage while accepting an award with my teammates at a robotics convention. Your argument is invalid.

    Reply
    • “My effort is simply to get women to realize that they can PREVENT unwanted contact. They stop it BEFORE it happens by using a little common sense.”

      Clearly, wearing jeans to awards ceremonies at robotics conventions is something you should have known better than to do. As with essin’ em wearing sweatpants… everyone knows sweats and jeans are like catnip to violent perverts, right?

      /sarcasm

      Reply
      • i have also been sexually assaulted in the same outfit…except it was on the street in the middle of the day, walking back to work from lunch. other than being outside in public, i did absolutely nothing to provoke it. i am shocked and stunned by these words:

        “There has to be SOMETHING that gives him the impression that she would be receptive to it. Whether intentional or not she has to do something to encourage him.”

        Reply
  42. You might think you have nothing against sex workers but your use of the word whore here says otherwise. It is the views and mentality as people such as yourself that sex workers deal with day in and day out and fight to overcome the stigma such as what you have said here.

    I can honestly say I don’t normally read this blog and if this is what is typical of it I am glad. Reading what I have read here today in your own words has made me ill.

    It is sad that you both can’t take a step back and look at what you have said here and what others have tried to point out to you. That you could not have learned something about yourselves and your views. Very sad.

    Reply
    • I know more than one sex worker who uses the term whore to refer to herself and does so in a positive manner. Just because you hold a negative opinion of the word and Taylor has a more positive opinion of the word does not mean he subscribes to the negativity attitude you’ve assigned him.

      Reply
      • The difference is that it is the sex worker who is using the word Laurel. Not some man who clearly was using it in a degrading way. I don’t know how you can read his statements and come off thinking he had a ‘positive opinion’ of the word.

        Show his statements to any sex worker and I think you’ll find the same response that I had.

        Reply
        • Or perhaps, Laurel, who has known Taylor and his writing style since, oh, 1998 and has spent time with him in person, just understands his tone and intentions better than someone who feels the need to “educate the idiots” does.

          Reply
  43. I think the biggest gap here comes from semantics. Some folks are associating the words blame, and fault, with the word responsibility.

    Fact: everyone is responsible for their own behavior.

    Fact: only the rapist is to blame for his actions.

    Fact: the victim is not at fault for the rapists actions.

    Fact: responsible behavior can prevent unwanted contact.

    Fact; there is little to nothing one can do to stop an intentional rape or intentional sexual contact.

    Fact; rape and unwanted contact aren’t necessarily the same thing even if the criminal charge is worded the same.

    Fact; responsible behavior can prevent misunderstandings that lead to unwanted contact.

    Fact; I am in no way blaming any victim for being a victim.

    Fact: I have no sympathy for irresponsible behavior.

    Fact: I have plenty of sympathy for real victims of real assaults, I even have sympathy for women who could have prevented being assaulted.

    Fact; I think women and men alike need to take personal responsibility for their actions, regardless of what those actions do or do not provoke.

    Fact: the time to take action regarding ANY unwanted contact sexual or otherwise is at the time of the contact, not in an attention seeking blog about it the next morning.

    Fact: this will be my last word on this.

    Reply
    • I was kinda wondering about this one:

      “Fact: responsible behavior can prevent unwanted contact.
      Fact; there is little to nothing one can do to stop an intentional rape or intentional sexual contact.
      Fact; rape and unwanted contact aren’t necessarily the same thing even if the criminal charge is worded the same.”

      Um, either you can prevent it or there is nothing one can do to stop it. It can’t be both. And the semantics in the third point are irrelevant. Unwanted sexual contact is sexual assault, whether or not penetration occurs.

      Reply
      • “Fact: responsible behavior can prevent unwanted contact.” – better words would be (might prevent).
        “Fact; there is little to nothing one can do to stop an intentional rape or intentional sexual contact.” – I agree. It doesn’t matter what you are wearing or time of day or anything else.
        “Fact; rape and unwanted contact aren’t necessarily the same thing even if the criminal charge is worded the same.” – “And the semantics in the third point are irrelevant.” – I agree with your coment.
        Where you start to lose me is “Um, either you can prevent it or there is nothing one can do to stop it. It can’t be both.”
        Why does it have to be black and white? You can be aware of your surroundings and the people etc. etc. and MAY be able to avoid a dangerous situation. When I used to go out clubbing, I was always taking stock of my enviroment and the people around me. With that said, did it help me when the group of guys didn’t like the way I accidently bumped into one of them. Nope. No matter how careful I was something still happened to me but it happened a lot less than if I was not paying attention to my surroundings. There have been things said above that definately could have been said differently but part of the problem with the written word is not being able to see the person and hear the tone and body language to get the true meaning. I would like to think that Taylor meant no harm to anyone. I say this not as someone who has no clue but as someone who, without going into details, has a pretty good idea on what it is like to be sexually assaulted/violated against your will as a young adult. Thank you to both sides for an enlightning discussion. Dialouge is the only way people become educated about a subject and possibly change things for the better.

        Reply
    • I fully believe that you didn’t have negative intentions with this post, but, unfortunately, what you said ended up being hurtful and false anyway.

      I understand everything you said above, but some of these things are just wrong.

      Fact: responsible behavior can prevent unwanted contact.
      Fact: responsible behavior can prevent misunderstandings that lead to unwanted contact.

      Um… no. Even if I do all the “right” things, e.g. dress conservatively, drink only a little, avoid dancing with strangers… I could still be going home with a trusted friend, they could end up being an asshole and forcing himself on me.

      You seem unwilling to accept the fact that SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST UNREPENTANT ASSHOLES WHO KNOW THEY ARE VIOLATING OTHERS BUT JUST DO NOT CARE. NO avoidance or careful behavior will change that.

      Fact: I think women and men alike need to take personal responsibility for their actions, regardless of what those actions do or do not provoke.

      You’re comparing dressing attractively with inappropriate and invasive touching? You’d have to be a moron to think that those two things are at ALL within the same league.

      Reply
      • I’m not sure where anyone said responsible behavior will stop all instances of sexual assault.

        Some people ARE unrepentant assholes, some friends turn out to be assholes – you can’t change that.

        But you can protect yourself to the best of your abilities and REDUCE the instances, without a doubt.

        Is a reduction of such things not worth a bit of awareness and responsible behavior?

        You’d have to be a moron to think they’re not. ;)

        Reply
        • Fair enough. It wasn’t addressed at all in the original post, and most of the attention here seemed to be placed on “rapists are just people who have made a mistake!” I got the impression that the intentional asses were being overlooked.

          The name-calling was stupid, sure, but I have to insist that they are very different things. Dressing attractively isn’t hurtful or invasive in any way, doesn’t affront anyone, at least in the US, and touching or penetrating someone without their consent very much does, and also disrespects any notion of privacy or personal boundaries.

          Reply
  44. “Someone’s Someone” right the fuck on with your comment.

    NO means NO. ALWAYS. BUT…You have to say it first for it to mean something.

    I have no animosity toward this girl or any of you because I don’t know a one of you. You can’t send mixed signals and assume a person will know how you’re feeling or thinking. It doesn’t give them the right to do anything even if you don’t say a thing but how can you expect them to know when your actions are doing the speaking and possibly saying something you don’t want. Why are the mixed signals here so hard to see? I’m not saying it’s right and I’m sorry it happened and happens everywhere. It is not victim blaming to expect an adult to be responsible and stand up for him or her self. It will always be the fault of the attacker but in this instance, he was probably a drunk idiot in a bar who thought his actions were okay because he was allowed to do it instead of being told NO.

    Reply
  45. As the poster (Taylor) has said repeatedly, there is no blame on the victim – except insofar as she completely lacked the ability to control the situation. As other posters have accurately assessed – a firm ‘Get lost’ or more physical response would be the sensible way to discourage other possible assailants from trying their luck.

    To liken it to Taylor’s post again; if she continued to walk down alleys acting like a victim, or appearing weak, then chances are some opportunistic thug would think her an easy target and attempt to mug her again. Likewise most of the sort of people that sexually assault others either do so because they perceive a target who should (in their mind) be receptive to their physical advances, and generally they don’t target the strong assertive individual who will tell them to take their diminutive penis and fuck themselves in the ass. The reason they don’t do this is because that would require them to take a hit to the ego which they often aren’t willing to risk. This is why basic self defence courses teach people how to avoid making themselves look like an easy target.

    Of course the very small percentage (as it has been pointed out) may certainly try to force the issue, but for the most part a would be assailant slinks off, ego bruised and hurt. The reason for this is that would be assailants are people like anyone else and the risk/reward centre of their brain is heavily skewed toward easy targets (less RISK of being knocked back in a way that would be hurtful) vs (being able to grind against someone’s leg and maybe finding the response to be positive). That isn’t to say only victims get sexually assaulted, but rather that they stand out as an easier mark and in the sort of situation where the assailant has to choose which target to go for they will generally go for the easier mark – because why expend all the effort of going after a mark that looks like they might put up a fight?

    Victims of all kinds suffer at the hands of assailants looking for an easy target, whether that is to relieve them of their wallet or grind against them on a dance floor, the only way to deter this from happening is to assert oneself against would be predators by making it clear that only the appropriate kind of advances are desired.

    Reply
  46. Taylor’s words are blunt, direct, even abrasive. I can see where those who are looking for an excuse to raise a stink could misunderstand them. I can see how that can happen. But I simply can not see them as any form of victim blaming. He never put her at fault for her assault. So many of you have put words in his mouth that he never uttered.

    His point is valid, his method of delivery leaves a lot to be desired. I don’t much care for the way he said it, but what he said was not wrong, and he certainly didn’t say the things he’s being accused of. Whether you’re willing to admit it or not a lot of you spin doctored his words, you embellished twisted and manipulated them to suite your own purposes. And that is foul, far more foul than his harsh tone.

    For the record, I don’t even like the guy, I think he’s an asshole but the truth had to be told.

    Reply
  47. Here’s the thing about your tips for “personal responsibility” and “safety” and “prevention”.

    Every. single. woman. has heard them about a million and a half times before. Seriously. We get them. We’re well aware of all of the rules we’re supposed to follow to prevent rape and sexual assault. We’ve all heard “don’t wear short skirts” and “don’t get too drunk” and “just say no” before.

    Unfortunately, they don’t work. Even if someone follows all of the rules, they can still get sexually assaulted. In fact, most sexual assaults aren’t so called “stranger rapes” but instead are intimate partner or “date” rapes and assaults. You are far more at risk for being assaulted by someone you know than someone you don’t. Your tips also aren’t applicable for preventing assault by someone you’re living with, if you’ll note. And self-defense is a lovely concept, but even that can’t consistently prevent assault. If a rapist wants to rape you, a quick knee in the stones or a firm “no” aren’t going to go far to stop them.

    And since we’ve all heard those tips before, stating and re-stating them again and again at us is about as far from helpful as you can get. Especially since they are used to blame victims for their own assaults, repeatedly (such as in a recent case in Australia, where a jury decided that since the victim was wearing so-called “skinny jeans”, she had to have helped her rapist take them off and therefore she consented, making it not rape). Whether you’re intending to or not, but writing a post about a sexual assault victim and saying that she should have taken some “personal responsibility” for her actions, you are joining the chorus of victim blaming and rape apologia.

    Perhaps most importantly, focusing on how women, specifically, can prevent assault – their own assaults – is really asking the wrong question. The question isn’t whether a victim did enough to prevent their own assault. The question is why people think it’s okay to rape and assault someone in the first place. The question is why people think a lack of enthusiastic consent for anything is okay. The question is how we teach people not to rape and assault, and how to respect others.

    I really suggest you read the things I linked to earlier, as well as do some additional reading on rape culture, enthusiastic consent, and feminism (may I recommend Yes Means Yes! and Shakesville and Tiger Beatdown?). Because as I said, whether you intend to or not, lecturing women about taking personal responsibility for their actions in response to a sexual assault absolutely, completely, comes off as victim-blaming. And those resources, if you care, can help you understand why more fully than I can in this comment.

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  48. Your assertion that you can bench-press your way to a mugging free life, or that a woman could dress her way to an assault free life, is ridiculous.

    While it may feed your ego each time you measure your biceps, violence, sexual or otherwise, is something that all the door-gyms, creatine smoothies, and conservative clothing choices in the world will never be able to prevent.

    Blaming the victim is not the solution.

    -Melissa and Kevin

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  49. Well isn’t this a controversial post :P
    I have to admit that I read it very early on but decided it was not worth commenting. Issues such as this are so thoroughly emotional that it seems to be the case that one is either 100% with the victim or 100% blaming the victim, and no sensible discussion can take place in between.

    This annoys me. This is counter-productive. If all people ever see are the two polar opposites then they, as moderates, will take the opinion that it is not their problem.

    I get what happened. I’ve sent inappropriate humpers flying across the dance floor before (after saying NO twice, I thought a hip bone slammed into his over-eager member was fair) It happens. I get what is being said here. I’m careful with my drinks. I normally wear some sort of “difficult” clothing. I try to go places with people.

    Risk minimisation is NOT blame. There is a vast difference there. Seatbelts and airbags, that is all we are talking here. They aren’t going to help you if you get hit by a semi and drive off a cliff, but they can help minimise the impact of some other collisions. People who feel the need or desire to commit sexual or violent crimes are often opportunistic and will choose the easier targets. All the things they tell you to do are to reduce the chances of looking like easy pickings. That doesn’t mean swapping the micro-mini for a chastity belt, that just means paying attention to what seem like completely trivial things in the overall scheme of things.

    These risk reduction things, the “preventative measures” that are so often poo-pooed and thrown out as putting the onus back on the victim, they are really worth looking at without the angry emotional glasses. It is all very well to blame the rapist (and it is most certainly the fault of the person committing the crime, not the victim) but that thought would hardly bring me any comfort. Blaming the rapist isn’t going to undo what happened, nor will it get the bastards off the street in time for your next night out, but taking a few simple steps might stop you being the next unfortunate victim. This is particularly important if you consider that someone close enough to rape you is surely close enough to commit other violent crimes that could end your life. If there is a chance of such acts being avoided by taking such basic measures, even knowing they are not foolproof, then why wouldn’t people want to do that?

    I’m speaking without my rose coloured glasses. I’ve had good friends be drugged and assaulted, I’ve had friends that were raped and I’ve been assaulted. I am more than aware that if someone REALLY wants to commit a crime on your person that they will find a way. They’ll barge into your house and catch you in your sweatpants if that is what they want. All I’m saying is that for those who are bottom-feeding opportunistic lowlifes, there is no reason we should be making it easier for them for the sake of principle.

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  50. I am really just trying to understand what Britni said. This guy tried to penetrate her? In the bar? So his dick was out, in front of everyone, and he tried to stick it in her vagina? I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around that. I’m not saying that it isn’t possible, I’m just saying that Britni’s known for making things into something they’re not. Domestic violence in a cleaning product commercial? PUH-LEEZE!

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  51. And one more thing. I fail to see the argument from feminists that when someone gives advice on how to potentially avoid being a target of rape, it’s victim blaming and slut-shaming.

    We teach our children how to prevent being kidnapped. Don’t talk to strangers. Don’t go anywhere with an adult whether you know them or not unless your parents tell you directly it’s ok. And so on. We are giving those children tools of self awareness.

    This is not to say that they’ll remember or utilize those tools, but we’re certainly not BLAMING them for someone wanting to kidnap them. We certainly wouldn’t BLAME them for being kidnapped if they didn’t follow any of the tips.

    This is no different than giving a woman tips on how to possibly avoid being a victim of sexual assault. A sober/slightly buzzed woman leaving a bar with a group of people is less likely to get attacked than a drunk woman walking by herself to a bus stop. Does that mean it’s the drunk woman’s fault if she does get attacked? Absolutely not!

    But hopefully that woman will be more aware of herself and her vulnerability in the future. It’s about self preservation, self awareness and taking responsibility for our actions. (I’m sure one of you flaming feminists will tell me that ‘taking responsibility for our actions’ means that I’m blaming the victim rather than seeing it for how I actually meant it.)

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  52. The extent of victim blaming in your post is quite horrifying. You state that for a woman to experience sexual assault she must somehow be inviting it, but unless you have an extremely broad definition of how a woman can possibly invite assault and harassment, at least in my experience, this is most certainly not true. I wear an Islamic head scarf -as well as my wedding ring- and follow a dress code where I wear loose fitting clothing and show nothing other than my hands and face. I almost never go anywhere other than the library after 10pm and, as part of my religious commitment, I generally politely decline to shake hands with men when the situation arises. Despite the fact that I make it abundantly clear that I am in no way interested or asking for any sort of male sexual attention, I have still had experiences such as a male metro employee telling me that he bets it would look really hot to get a blow job from a woman in a scarf and that he intends to masturbate to the image of me fellating him later. While in Lebanon, I once had a soldier attempt to rape me at gun point because I was walking home with a male friend at 3am and he assumed that I must have been having a sexual relationship with my friend (who, incidentally, is gay). Yes, I was out late at night and this was before the wedding ring, but I was doing nothing at all illicit, was not drunk, and was not dressed in an even remotely provocative way. I have also had a complete stranger here in DC grab and twist my breast hard enough to leave bruises from 4 of his fingers all around the breast while in an elevator at 11am. Following the line of logic in your blog post, I almost feel as though you would like me to blame myself for getting into an elevator alone with a strange man.

    You say that the average man would not just approach a woman in a blatantly sexual way without getting some sort of cue that he would not be rejected, but I have to hope that sexual predators aren’t the average man. The fact that they are in the minority, however, does not mean they do not exist. Also, in the case you described above, one has to assume that alcohol played a significant role in the interaction. Not everyone is an elegant drunk, and alcohol may have led the assaulter to believe that his victim was giving off cues that did not really exist. It may also just have lowered his inhibitions so that he was able to just act however he wanted and try to get his penis under her skirt in a public setting.

    My personal experience with sexual assault has been that many men have a fantasy that , for some reason, they seem to believe a woman is obligated to fill. For some reason, there appears to be bit of a headscarf fetish out there, with a heavy leaning towards images of women in scarves giving men blow jobs, which I’m assuming led the metro employee to think that he could tell me he would be masturbating to the image of me fulfilling that role since evidentially that is all he knows of women in headscarves. I, however, do not feel that I in any way allowed that to happen. It’s like men who have a airline hostess fetish or a twin fetish: sometimes people actually seem to confuse their fantasy with the reality in front of them. I think that’s generally the case in situations of sexual assault. Other than the one time where there was a blatant attempt at rape with a deadly weapon, I’ve never felt like the men involved had any idea that I would be offended. Both the metro employee and the elevator breast assaulter seemed so excited to see me that it was more than a little disturbing. It totally didnt seem to register to them that I was an actual person beyond some sort of extension for their really, really strange fetish. I think it is much more likely that the attacker in the story above wanted to believe that his fantasy of a cute girl liking him and wanting to get with him right away in the bar was coming true after he’d had enough to drink that his judgment was slightly impaired than that the victim in question was in ANY way asking for it.

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    • You know what’s really fucking horrifying, the fact that so many people are too fucking stupid to understand the written word.

      I NEVER said she was asking for it. I never blamed her for his actions. I never said anything about stopping intentional predation.

      All I’ve said is that if women paid more attention to how their actions are perceived by others, they’d stand a better chance of avoiding unwanted contact from guys who don’t realize their advances are unwanted.

      In this particular situation we have girl who is well known for her drunken promiscuity, known for her attention seeking behavior, known for making really bad decisions. So yeah if she didn’t have a habit of acting like a fucking tramp MAYBE she wouldn’t have been treated like one.

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  53. “The average guy, doesn’t arbitrarily start ‘humping’ a random girl in a bar. There has to be SOMETHING that gives him the impression that she would be receptive to it.”

    While this may be true of “average” guys, whatever they are, there are certainly guys whose clue-meter has never worked right and who try/offer/push things that no reasonable person would think appropriate.

    It’s not hard to find chicks whose programming for civilized, non-aggressive behavior leaves them too damned shocked to do immediately what they’d realize is appropriate after thinking about it for a few hours. More than once I’ve heard from reasonable women who did nothing to provoke misconduct that they were too stunned to deck the SOB who groped them and left.

    On a different subject, there’s a difference between saying a drunken flirt in a provocative skirt “deserves” assault and saying that she could better control herself and her environment to maximize her safety from the easily provoked. From where I stand, even a genuine fool doesn’t deserve violation. Nobody deserves violation.

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